No one else is going to paint me a picture because what I am saying has been proven through decades of breedings and pedigrees. Gonnie, with over 25 years in the breed stated the same thing, posting both here and on MD and what respect did MD give him? None. What respect have you given him on this post, none.
Show me where I disrespected anyone in my postings on MD about the coat color? Show me where I called people names or insulted them? Because I can show you from Gary's first posting the tone and insults the thread has become. The person that needs to open their mind is YOU. Put up, answer the damn question or just shut the hell up!
Jonathan 'Jax' Johnson Lady of the Lake Kennel The Hell with speak softly and carry a big stick. Speak your mind and carry a .45!
P.S. Wolf, you give me one long time Neapolitan breeder that will confirm what your saying, a respected member of the breed and I will gladly, publically state I was wrong.........until then go bug JC. Jonathan 'Jax' Johnson Lady of the Lake Kennel The Hell with speak softly and carry a big stick. Speak your mind and carry a .45!
Phil wrote ... I assume from this post that you seen these litters born in person and voted yes 110% as there is no possible doubts of other dogs being used?I just wanna know IF at all ever it has happened and anyone can say YES 110% without a single doubt.Basically as in you seen em pop out that bitch yourself.
I was present at the time of whelping, but I wasn't there for the Sicilian breeding, meaning actual mating of the 2 dogs, but if anything else was involved apart from the main male, it would've been a blue Corso/ Neo cross, which was the only other male anywhere near the bitch in question. So yeah, you could say that it is possible that the litter had 2 sires, but I have no reason to believe that that was the case.
Now, when it comes to the breeding in Serbia, I was there for both the actual act of mating and the whelping of the pups. The only "dark horse" that I'm certain of being involved MANY generations back in the lineage of the couple in question was a pure gray Sharplaninac, whose influence would've been almost completely bred out of the line at that point. In any case, that breeding I am 110% sure was the case of 2 blue Mastini producing black pups, everything else would admittedly be 2nd hand knowledge.
Regardless, the point remains that genetics are by and large the weakest link when it comes to the knowledge of most (if not all) breeders and if one was to be completely honest with oneself as a Neo lover, it must be recognized that in a breed like the Mastino, insisting on absolutes is out of place, even embarrassingly so. And again, science of genetics today is so much more advanced than it was only 10 years ago, let alone prior to that. Clinging onto the rudimentary Mendelian principles as the be-all-end-all approach is foolish, as there have been serious advances in genetic research which offer much more insight into the inheritance of genes than ever before. Why fear progress?
Blue has 2 color genotypes BBdd and Bbdd, Mahogany as well has also 2 genotypes types bbDD and bbDd. And BOTH of them (Blue and Mahogany) are recessive to black. Which means NO BLACK!
Wolf; That is the best you can do! ........can't even answer a simple question!
[ Edited Mon Sep 01 2008, 11:50AM ] Jonathan 'Jax' Johnson Lady of the Lake Kennel The Hell with speak softly and carry a big stick. Speak your mind and carry a .45!
Joined: Wed Dec 31 1969, 07:00PM Location: Underground Posts: 1389
Latinomasti wrote ... Blue has 2 color genotypes BBdd and Bbdd, Mahogany as well has also 2 genotypes types bbDD and bbDd. And BOTH of them (Blue and Mahogany) are recessive to black. Which means NO BLACK!
The pigment that is responsible for a dog's hair color is called melanin. There are two types of melanin in dogs: a pigment associated with black and brown coloration (called eumelanin) and a pigment associated with lighter colors such as yellow, red and orange (called phaeomelanin). There are a number of genes that affect how and where these pigments are produced. The genes can occur as variant forms, called alleles. Some alleles play a dominant role (usually identified by capital letters) over others and their presence will overshadow the effect of recessive alleles (identified by small letters). The gene designated as "E" is responsible for eumelanin production. If the dominant form of "E" is not present ("ee" genotype), the black and brown pigment is not produced and the dog's coat will be reddish in color (yellow, orange or red). On the other hand, if at least one E allele ("EE" or "Ee" genotypes) occurs, black or brown pigment would be the basis for a dog's coat color. A third allele, Em, causes reddish dogs to have a black or brown facial mask. The absence of the dominant form of "B" will change the black color of eumelanin into brown but will have no effect on the coat color of "ee" genotype dogs. For example, dogs with EEBB, EeBB, EeBb genotypes will have eumelanin normally produced ("E" is present) and will have black coat color (the dominant "B" is present). EEbb and Eebb genotypes will have eumelanin produced but their coat will be brown in color ("B" is not present). NOTE: any "bb" genotype dog will have brown nose and pad leather. The eeBB, eeBb, and eebb genotype dogs do not produce eumelanin pigment and will have reddish coat color. There are other groups of genes responsible for coat coloration. They are C (albino), D (blue dilution), G (graying), M (merle), R (roaming), S (white spotting), T (ticking), and K (dominant black). We'll use "EE" in the Neapolitan breed chart below for Black, as stated above. This Black most likely came from the Great Dane breed along with the dilution Blue color. It would also explain the fabled 'white' coated dogs sometimes discussed within the breed. We'll leave that out for now. So Black would be represented as “EE” & “Ee”. The Neapolitan does not have a mask in the lessor colors, so Em will be left out. The recessive "ee" of black, would produce the red coat color Mahogony, as long as the dilution gene is in the dominant form, “DD” or “Dd”, not because of Dogue De Bordeux blood mixed in (even though the breed most likely has been mixed in). So Mahogony would be “eeDD” or “eeDd” and we need to update the Black set. “EE” & “Ee” would now become “EEDD” & “EeDD” and we add “EEDd” & “EeDd”. All “ee” dogs would have the nose and pad color of their coat color. So, we have explained the Black coat color and the Mahogony coat colors. Let’s move to the Blue. Blue in Neapolitan Mastiffs is caused by the presence of two “d” alleles, represented as “dd”. A dog with only one “d” allele, “Dd”, is never blue, but can produce blue. The dilution gene must be in the non-dominant form "dd" to produce Blue instead of Black. The dilution of the black coat color shown as “EEdd” or “Eedd” in the chart below would produce Blues. The recessive of Black, Mahogony “ee”, requires the dominant form of the dilution gene to express the red color. “eeDD” or “eeDd”. The dilution gene must be in the non-dominant form "dd" and the non-dominant form of Black, “ee” present to produce Tawny. The “woodpile” effect of getting Black when a Neapolitan is cross bred. Two possible ways that all pups will have Black coat colors; The breed has the Dominate Black gene, represented by “K”. All breeding to this will only produce black coat colors. The melanin of the crossed breed is recessive to the “EE” or “Ee”. A Black coat color Neapolitan is expressed as “EE” or “ Ee” . If the Neapolitan is a Blue, “EEdd” or “Eedd” and bred to a cross with recessive “ee” then the Dominant “EE”or “Ee” will result in Black pups as the dominant must represent itself. Blue cannot be represented because the cross breed would have to be “dd” as well. Kathy Johnson Lady of the Lake Kennel Click me
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