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| brigda |
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| Guest Gold 0  Spent: 0 | Hi everyone, I have a question, we ARE NOT breeding Prunella nor Contessa again. Prunella is 6, so is Contessa. Prunella is in good health. She plays like a puppy, but, I will not jeapordize her health, with another litter. I'm not even entertaining the thought, (and she is in season right now, and is a bitch! Literally!! LMAO). What age do you safely feel is right to breed a bitch? What if it is a first litter? How many litters should a dam have?? At what age should you stop breeding?? I have heard there is a thought to breed at a younger age because of inability to get bitches bred as they become older and more typey.. Have any of you heard the same?? What is your opinion? A lot of breeder's don't have dogs that live to be 6!! So, I am curious what your thoughts are?? Another quick question... Since the Neo is part of the akc now, and has adopted the akc code of ethics, this is acceptable ages for studs and bitches.... Chapter 3, Section 5 of the Rules Applying to Registration and Discipline reads as follows: "No dog or litter out of a dam under eight (8) months or over twelve (12) years of age at the time of mating, or by a sire under seven (7) months or over twelve (12) years of age at the time of mating, will be registered unless the application for registration shall be accompanied by an affidavit or evidence which shall prove the fact to the satisfaction of The American Kennel Club." What do you think of this???? I think it is wrong... Anne | |||
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| MOgJO |
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 | IMO with our breed its not a good idea to breed anything that are under the age of 2 years but that is me. I am sure there are animals that can give exceptions to that rule and others know those exceptions. I do not feel its good also to breed every heat cycle on a bitch. Again this is me looking from the outside in, i am not a breeder. Age itself for the dam and to stop; i would say again its up to the situation but if the breeder took care and the dog was healthy and handled the prego part ok 6 years is when i would say stop. Not worth risking your loving pet to get that last litter and them die. 4 litters in a life time seems reasonible imo if she stays in good health and handles it well. IF not then less. Again i am outside looking in. Dont know anything about the typey part or problems from type. I know for fact that bitches get more typey from being prego and having a litter. It changes them from what i understand. Do u feel that the age limits is too young and then too old, on the limits in the ethics paragraph? or ? Shantell Shantell | |||
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| brigda |
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| Guest Gold 0 Spent: 0 | I feel a bitch should definitely be over a year... and on her second heat, at least. A male should not be used before he is at least a year old, I believe. I think that it is unethical to use that immature of a dog. And a bitch at 8 months, in a giant breed?? These rules were developed for the sporting breeds, don't you think? I feel a young female in good condition is in much better shape than a 6 yr old. If I thought for a minute that Nella would be ok, I still wouldn't, I don't believe... Because at her age it isn't worth the risk to me. I also believe that if you put that much stress on a EIGHT!!! month old bitch, OMG!!! What is the long term effects?? On a young heart?? In a human woman the circulatory system is increased by a 3rd, I think... Can you see that in a puppy? I don't know the comparisions, but it is now "ok" in the eyes of the akc, isn't it? And the non-joined, non-complete joints of a male, put in that position on a bitch, can certainly do damage. So, yes, I think the age limits are not good for our breed, and I much prefer the way the USNMC had it set up.... Anne | |||
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| MOgJO |
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| | YA the stress is huge i would say for a bitch to attempt to produce in any breed at a young age. U have to think about the driving force behind some of these rules. Was it a club that pushed it or some board member that had a litter that was not covered in past terms.... who knows but i think practices with different breeders are that. U find some that are VERY ethical and others just dont give a shit and are out for a buck as always and it doesnt matter the death or harm to anything that is not themselves. Sick really imo Shantell Shantell | |||
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| Starrsdcct |
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HBIC | I say its up to the individual females. If they don't need C-sections every time and just have natural births, and have done well during births. If she is healthy I say it is up to the breeder. They know their dogs. Case in point Bruna was up there in age her last litter, and she always seemed to do well. Gaia had her last litter at the age of six. She had them natural, with no problems. If she has only had one or two litters and done good I see no problems breeding older bitches. If she has had many litters, no give her a rest. If she always needs to be put under to get her bred, and for c-section, no its too much of a risk to keep putting them under. Now I do recommend spaying if you know you are done breeding that bitch. The older they get the more prone they are to get Pyro after a heat cycle. And in an older bitch Pyro is even more dangerous. [ Edited Fri Sep 18 2009, 06:00AM ] Starrsdcct Neapolitans UGM Admin Check out the links below Mastino Napoletano Photos Mastino Napoletano Links Mastino Napoletano Videos Mastino Napoletano Health Mastino Napoletano Chat Room | |||
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| pegnoca |
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| Some Clarification: The AKC "rule" has to do with the AKC accepting a litter registration for processing without additional documentation, not with "recommending" particular ages for breeding. You have to remember the AKC processes thousands of litter registrations every month from over 200 breeds. They don't make rules by breed....their rules have to be made in such a way as to apply to ALL breeds. And they put these "rules" in place so that when a litter form is submitted, and the clerk types it into the computer, if the age of the either sire or dam calculates out to a certain high-or-low figure the litter is flagged as "needing verification" and they won't process it without that additional info. Toy dogs are often physically mature very early, much earlier than the giant breeds, and some moderate-type breeds can certainly sire or whelp litters at a much later age than is typical in a giant breed. Even in toys, however, it is extremely UNLIKELY but NOT impossible, for a male to have productive sperm under 7 months of age...and it is extremely UNLIKELY but NOT impossible for a bitch to whelp and carry a litter at over 12 years of age. The AKC is NOT recommending that these are suitable ages for breeding in any breed. They do NOT believe this is the role of the AKC. They leave those recommendations UP TO THE MEMBERS OF THE PARENT CLUB because they realize that the recommendations will differ by breed and by circumstance of the breed. This is typically given in the Parent Club Code of Ethics as what the members both recommend and commit to follow by their own actions. Sadly, the Board of Directors of the AKC Parent Club for the Neapolitan Mastiff has recently ELIMINATED all recommendations for age of breeding the Neapolitan Mastiff from the Member Code of Ethics. (without Member approval, by the way, but apparently only one member questioned or objected to the board so the membership seems to have simply said "oh well.") peggy wolfe [ Edited Fri Sep 18 2009, 07:50AM ] Peggy | ||||
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| brigda |
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| Guest Gold 0 Spent: 0 | Thanks, Peggy... You are right, you, also... Shantell....I was just sitting here, last night, in my 2 minutes of free time...LMFAO.... I'm sure the akc is just using those as the limits, NOT recommendations... It is up to individual breeders... and we can see for ourselves who is doing what and at what age...... Starr, I agree with you. I would LOVE to get a litter from either Contessa or Nella. That would be a dream... However, both dogs were ill this last winter. There was a dog here that had Klebsiella pneumonia, and required prolonged treatment. Both Nella and Rudy also, developed the same. Nella was actually quite ill. For a long time. We didn't show her for several months.. (and let me tell you, she WAS NOT HAPPY about that). We show her a lot of the time, becuz she LOVES to show. Contessa apparently had an inner ear infection, and was very dehydrated, and her kidneys went into failure... She had this ear infection for a while, before she showed any symptoms, and one day her balance was off, and she fell a couple of times, scared the S___out of us, and we RAN with her to the vet.. This was a significant infection, and she had it for a while, and showed no outside signs.. And we had been readying her for major entropian surgery, so she had been under close observation, she was in pain becuz of her eyes, and was on a lot of eye meds, and pain meds.... Her bun and creatinine were VERY high, and we were possibly going to lose her. So........ Lots of iv fluid, (at home, sub-q), to kick start her kidneys, expensive antibiotics for 2 months... $6.00 a pill, yessss... and she was also on meclizine for her balance. And a homeopathic pill for her kidneys... Her eye surgery still has not been done, and won't be... I collected urine with a cake pan at least once a week, and the day she started concentrating her urine again.... !!!!!!! Because her kidneys were once again working!!!! was a day for celebration. Obviously, she will not be bred. Like Starr said, I know her and her issues. We are lucky for every day she is here. She needed inner ear surgery, and I won't do it, becuz of her kidneys... her balance is ok.... she is enjoying her life... her having another litter is NOT that important. Nella is better, we won't breed her becuz of her illness last winter. It wouldn't be worth it. I knew that when I posted. I would breed her in a minute, if she hadn't been ill. However, a 6 yr old with a major illness.... it isn't worth the chance.. She is happy and healthy, now.... She is very much so, now... but a 6 yr old who had severe pneumonia, for a couple of months, possibly has lung damage. Or a heart injury. .. But...... my question is... is it ok to do so??? I guess many breeders would, to get another litter... Is this one of the reasons our dogs don't live long??? Thinking out loud, here... At what age should you stop using males?? I don't think there is an age, if they still have good, strong sperm. But at a certain age, it IS going to hurt their hips... if not their hearts. My daughter was telling me a couple of months ago of a friend she has...... Her male "dropped dead" while doing a breeding!!!!! In this instance, we should use AI. And we shouldn't be breeding puppies.... Sorry...... If we want happy and healthy dogs, with long lives, this WILL not do it.. A male, or even a female (especially a female) under a year is not old enuf. I think we should use the old USNMC guidelines. Just my opinions and thoughts. Thanks.... Anne | |||
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| brigda |
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| Guest Gold 0 Spent: 0 | Starr, About the spay..... I don't think Contessa would do well with the anesthesia. That scares me.. We haven't had her blood checked recently... Nella, I don't know... I am still worried about anesthesia, with her... Will need to consult a couple of vets... and not just anyone.. Anne | |||
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| pegnoca |
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| sounds like you are making decisions based on many different factors at play for your dogs. Good job. But...... my question is... is it ok to do so??? "is it ok" is a question really asking "will everyone else think it is ok?" And the answer, clearly, is No, not everyone will think it is ok! But it doesn't matter WHAT you do, there will almost ALWAYS be someone who will think that what you want to do or are going to do is NOT ok. And on the Internet that someone will state so with great fervor, and possibly with great invective as well. This has always been true, by the way, it's just that with the use of the Internet, such criticism gets made public much faster and with much more impact on personal reputations than ever before. Whether or not to breed an individual is a decision that must be made by breeders all the time. The age to breed first, and whether or not to breed an individual of "advanced" age is only ONE of the factors to consider. And there are so many variables in this decision that it is pretty tough to come up with some statement that EVERYONE will agree with ALL the time. People develop individual philosophies based on background, personal experience, recommendation of others more experienced, personal abilities, and so on. One of the recommendations that is traditionally taken into account (and that is usually cherished by those new to the breed as a good thing) is the recommendation of the parent club for that breed. Well, apparently you ain't got any such recommendation from the parent club for the neapolitan mastiff any more, so you can't use that. If you want to breed a mastino of six years of age or more, and you believe he or she is healthy and capable and you can take care of the litter and you can sell or keep or place all the puppies with a good conscience..well, the AKC will register the litter. Will you get criticism from some people? maybe. possibly. probably. what else is new? If you are acting with your own personal integrity intact, you should not be affected by such silliness and sensible people will understand that. peggy Peggy | ||||
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| Starrsdcct |
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| HBIC | Anne yes with them having been sick I see why you wouldn't breed them. Just a quick story on Gaia. We went to have her spayed, and Dr Carlton and I decided that it might be more of a risk putting her under, so that we would just wait and see if she did develope pyro and spay then. Her next heat she did develope pyro, we did the spay, two weeks later she died from staph from the surgery. So I agree, I have fears putting them under if they have been put under other times, or if they are older. But I do regret not going a head and spaying her before she got sick. We trusted him with putting them under, he had done many neos. So now looking back I don't know why we were scared. As to breeding older bitches, I say six would be my limit, we all know how much faster these giants age compared to other smaller breeds. I would not breed past six. As to males, I see no problem collecting them until they can no longer produce good sperm. I think breeding the older healthier dogs is a good thing. Hell look how many don't even make it to the age of four. I think if the dogs do well are healthy, and not being over bred, it is nice to see older ones still producing and living healthy lives. Starrsdcct Neapolitans UGM Admin Check out the links below Mastino Napoletano Photos Mastino Napoletano Links Mastino Napoletano Videos Mastino Napoletano Health Mastino Napoletano Chat Room | |||
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